Non-Binary Conversations

Charlie’s Ok: Coming Out Trans* master post

Original call for help:

I really genuinely have no idea how to come out as nonbinary to my parents

Like, how do I explain it so that they understand? They don’t really know even very basic things about trans stuff

and it’s such a steep learning curve

So um

Help?

I would really appreciate any input at all that nonbinary (and binary too, but specifically nonbinary) trans people have in coming out to people.

So uh, if you could reblog this or drop a message in my askbox (you can go anon or ask me not to publish) then I would really, really really appreciate it.

_____

Help received:

Rob’s (robicide’s) coming out story

Kate’s (iamwhoiamandidontgiveadamn’s) advice and experience (with answer/ personal commentary by me)

Danika’s (fillingthespaces’s) coming out story & advice & follow up answer: [X]

Snowy’s (resurrectedrule’s) advice

Cardboardmoose’s ‘coming out 101’ & advice post

Fireystage’s analagy help

Nina-the-tiny’s advice

Anonymous advice

Iwantatophat’s advice

_____

This will be edited as & when I get new help!

Thank you everyone who has helped so far, I cannot express how wonderful you’ve all been <3

Ok

whatfreshhellisthis:

I really genuinely have no idea how to come out as nonbinary to my parents

Like, how do I explain it so that they understand? They don’t really know even very basic things about trans stuff

and it’s such a steep learning curve

So um

Help?

I would really appreciate any input at all that nonbinary (and binary too, but specifically nonbinary) trans people have in coming out to people.

So uh, if you could reblog this or drop a message in my askbox (you can go anon or ask me not to publish) then I would really, really really appreciate it.

Signal boost!

Anonymous:

Re: the last ask.

I've seen "cisgender transsexual" and "cissexual transgender" used by more than one person before, and it's always been used in a cissexist way with reifying the idea that trans* genders are fake. I wasn't referring specifically to fierystage's usage, I was speaking in general.

The difficulty arises when people assume identity policing whenever anyone's labels are questioned which ends up allowing and condoning HBS rhetoric as well as cissexism and binarism. The fact is we *need* to question these concepts and be allowed to have boundaries and definitions or we won't get anywhere in being actually inclusive.

Being trans* is more than just saying you are, and when people treat labels as identities there's no way to discuss this all openly. Anyone can masquerade as being something when they're not, and it cheapens our real and valid identities to fight against any and all 'policing' as if we shouldn't be allowed to call out appropriation let alone internalized cissexism. I also think it's more than a little ridiculous to reify the idea that one can be cis and trans* at the same time, given the actual definitions of the words as opposed to what some would like them to mean to allow for appropriation.

Ok.

——————— My own personal opinion and reply below ———————

Cisgender means ‘someone who is the gender they were assigned at birth’, right, whereas transgender is ‘someone who is not the gender they were assigned at birth’. We can agree on that, can’t we?

This alone says nothing about surgery, the need to transition or any of that.

So, if someone is MtFtM- that is, a person who feels the need to alter their body in some way related to their sex characteristics in order to fit better what they need to feel their gender (a gender that happens to be the one they were assigned at birth) then I have no idea why on earth they can’t identify as cisgender transexual if they so wish. (And yes, I know that some MtFtM/FtMtF/FtNtF/MtNtF/etc people identify as trans and that is also ok too.)

The problem is that very often labels are identities. Or, at the very least, so tangled up in them that they’re difficult or impossible to separate from one another.

And ok, I personally dislike the terms cissexual transgender and transexual cisgender and agree that they can be used in cissexist ways (not least because of the emphasis they put on surgical transition) and I would be seriously angry if someone was using them to describe someone who did not identify that way (if you refer to me as cissexual just because as of now I don’t want to approach surgery I will kick you in the face) but telling someone else that they cannot use certain labels is nonsensical, and yes, is policing.

I also disagree with the idea that policing is always bad; for example I will tell white folks that their use of ‘two spirit’ is racist, appropriative and exploitative of Native cultures- but in this case I honestly have no idea who made you the sovereign of identity.

Many nonbinary people do identify as cis and trans- some identify as both cisgender and transgender at the same time, even- simply because for some of us ‘on the same side as’ and ‘on the opposite side as’ are two concepts that are too binary for us. Some of us identify as our assigned gender some of the time but not all, some of us identify as our assigned gender among other genders.

There are infinite genders.

I really don’t understand why you feel the need to tell people how they can and cannot express how they experience those genders.

scar-lip-deactivated20120709:

Actually, from what I can tell, it would be if the last anon were a man gender-wise, not agender.
Being fine being perceived as your assigned gender, when that is not your actual gender, doesn't deny being transgender.

OH.

Right, of course.

Ooops.

Sorry, that was a reading comprehension fail on my part.

Hello!

I am Charlie of whatfreshhellisthis and I have taken over non-binary conversations as of just now!

I am a bigendered agender/genderqueer person who is mostly agender. My preferred pronouns are ze/zir or singular they (whichever you are more comfortable with; I usually use singular they).

So hello, and I hope I can be the best mod I can be.

Anonymous:

Re: Cisgender trans* folks.

I'm, what's the term, MAAB (?) and agender - I would at some point like to do something about that thing in my pants that shouldn't be there, but would be perfectly fine with people perceiving me as male.
It's more, to me, about how I feel about my body than about how people perceive me.

Is this what you mean?

Well, no, as being perceived as male doesn’t actually make you a man. You’re still agender, and therefore transgender (if you identify as such) because your gender does not match your assigned one.

hidden-agender:

Yeah, what the anonymous person described isn't what I meant at all. I already answered this on my main Tumblr but I'll reiterate: a cisgender transsexual is someone who is FAAB and identifies as a woman but wants top surgery, testosterone treatment or bottom surgery, or someone who is MAAB and identifies as a man but wants estrogen treatment or GRS.

Anonymous:

Considering the actual definition of cisgender is "someone who does not experience dissonance with their *assigned* gender" it seems contradictory for someone to be a cisgender transsexual. In effect a "cisgender transsexual" is reifying cis as "normal" and trans as fake. Incidentally, the concept of 'cis' trans people is HBS (Harry Benjamin Syndrome) rhetoric that is inherently cissexist in nature.

I know that pointing this out will get shouts of 'policing identity' but this is a real issue of not only internalized cissexism but also of assimilation tactics that undermine the realities of our identity in a society that, more often than not, seeks to invalidate our lives and experiences while taking away our agency. When we rush to protect an 'identity' that is constructed on cissexist premises we are doing harm to ourselves by reifying that thinking.

It's not a 'slippery slope straw man derail' to point out problematic labels that are separate from identity inasmuch as one chooses their labels based on whether the labels fit who they are. Constructing another definition so you can claim a label, provided the definition wasn't *harmfully* exclusionary (see: expanding 'trans*' to include non-binaries), seems inherently pointless unless someone is trying to create a hierarchy of realness vs. trans*ness that reifies cisgender as the ideal state and dismisses a trans* identity as just as real and valid.

tl;dr: To accept and validate HBS rhetoric, let alone internalized cissexism, in a space that purports to be safe is alienating and harmful. A discussion about this is vital even if it often gets shut down by people protesting identity policing when nothing of the sort is actually happening.

I am not certain what the person who said that meant, but I assumed that it was referring to cisgender people- people whose gender matches the sex they were assigned at birth- who feel bodily dissonance/dysphoria related to their sex and need to medically transition. This does happen.

However, you’re right that internalized cissexism is a HUGE problem in the trans community at the whole. I’ve seen a woman say “I’m not trans, I’m a woman” as if the two were exclusive concepts.

Anonymous:

just wanted to point out that people don't always have their identity completely figured out, and may id as cis for lack of better words to describe themselves, when all they know for sure is that they prefer nonbinary pronouns. (a lot of non-binaries i know assumed they were cis wannabes at first because of stereotypes about what makes you traditionally dysphoric enough or androgynous enough or whatever to be considered nonbinary) personally i cannot ever see a situation where it's ok to deny someone their preferred pronouns when they ask for them. i just can't.

personally i cannot ever see a situation where it’s ok to deny someone their preferred pronouns when they ask for them. i just can’t.

reiterating that part because that is personally how I feel on this as well.

mustermark:

nonbinary-conversations:

[Background: a smooth gradient of white-black-grey-purple-green-orange-yellow-white, using all the colors except red and blue. Foreground: A white face with short brown hair looking straight ahead with a neutral expression. It was made using a face averager.
Top text: ”Trans people are allowed to see their bodies however they’re most comfortable” Bottom Text: ”You’re most comfortable seeing your body as your assigned sex? You aren’t really trans” ]

Not non-binary specific, but because an anon was rather fervent on this subject.

Yes, a lot of trans people are most comfortable seeing their body as the sex that is most associated with their gender. That is not always the case. And the people who are most comfortable seeing their body as a sex that is not often associated with their gender? Just as valid.

We are not reclaiming our rights to define our bodies just to deny trans people who we don’t agree with the right to do the same.

I swear I’m not trying to be antagonistic or anything, but I’m confused and I want some clarification. So, if you’re female-gendered, female-assigned, and you’re most comfortable with your body being female, in what way are you trans*? Is it like if you were male-assigned and then had reassignment therapy/surgery? I guess I’m looking for the definition of trans* that the picture’s argument is using.

This is about people who have a male or non-binary gender, were assigned female at birth, and are comfortable seeing their body as female or people who have a female or non-binary gender, were assigned male at birth, and are comfortable seeing their body as male.

(via alienanthropologist-deactivated)

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